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    RDII Scrapped, Are We Ready for New DC Pumps?

    These photos of an RDII look-a-like DC pump are well over a year old by now, but it shows a product that will likely never reach the hands of aquarists.  8-12 months ago the dialogue on DC brushless pumps were running rampant as were the rumors. I was personally told by multiple equipment manufacturers that [...]

    DC-Pump

    These photos of an RDII look-a-like DC pump are well over a year old by now, but it shows a product that will likely never reach the hands of aquarists.  8-12 months ago the dialogue on DC brushless pumps were running rampant as were the rumors. I was personally told by multiple equipment manufacturers that they were developing their own DC pump, yet it’s 2010 and very little has progressed. In fact the opposite could be said. Royal Exclusiv recalled their RD2s in North America and we are told will no longer be selling the RD2 DC pump as initial rolled out. Instead they have teamed up with Vertex Aquaristik are working on something entirely new. What exactly, we don’t know, but we are keen to find out.

    For this aquarium technology, the economy, lack of market interest, and price all are playing a roll in its infancy–the big question is, will we every see widespread use of brushless DC (BLDC) centrifugal pumps? There is an obvious control advantage with a brushless DC motor, and we feel it has some real application for skimmers and closed loops… but how about outside of that ? Niche product or the future?


    Related Posts

    1. Schunk Tritron Name Change for U.S. Market and Custom Stream Pumps
    2. Vertex Now Available Throughout Europe
    3. Vertex Aquaristik’s New Website – Metal Halides, Dosing Pumps and More
    4. More RD2 Look-a-likes: Blue Eco DC Pumps from Aqua Forte
    5. Royal Exclusiv Updates Red Dragon Pumps
    • nivenethan

      And what about all those people who have RDII pumps that keep failing? Where's our solution? I'm on my third RDII pump and now I'm told there are no more. I was also told there is a new pump coming in March or April. In the mean time I continue to rig up “fixes” for my RD II's and limp them along. Fun stuff….nothing like paying $2200 for a skimmer that fails every 30 days.

    • Jon Hahn

      Those photos are not of 'look-alikes', but the same motor. Royal Exclusive just had them made with red accent parts rather than blue. Those motors all come from one maker though. Royal never actually made them, it was just was a 'reseller' (the pumps can be purchased direct for a few hundred $$$ or less – depends on the number purchased of course). Because Royal claimed they made them in the EU (even had Honcar print “made in the EU” on the controller to perpetuate this myth), they ended up in violation of several US customs import laws. Also, Tunze's could be seen as Sicce resellers, Quiet One as the same, etc.

      As for DC… what is the point? DC grants variable speed, higher starting torque, higher speeds that aren't coupled with the AC frequency, etc. The variable speed part is seen as the great bonus, but why? For wave making, we want to use prop pumps anyways, right? There are plenty of these out on the market now. What is the point of a variable speed centrifugal pump though? Why would you put that on a skimmer or use it as a return pump?

      Really, the only reason for DC centrifugal motors might be for better skimmer pumps, as in, a higher speed and starting torque (for less sputter) since the impeller that is ideal for use as a needle/meshwheel efficiency is often too large to start on its own. This CAN BE OVERCOME without DC though. There are ways to add 'starter circuits' in AC powered motors to overcome this, just like we can make AC motors that are unidirectional. Having a higher speed motor might also be cool, but unless we get away from mag-drive motors, there are going to be efficiency problems as we increase speed that will undermine the purpose.

    • kembelar

      test

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      John, you've continually made this accusation on the origins of the RD2 pump without any supporting evidence. At this point nearly all posts on the topic come off as slanderous. I would strongly urge you to focus your energies on other topics…

      Regarding DC motors, keep in mind there is nothing preventing the creation stream pumps from a BLDC.

    • Nick_GSM

      Eric those are obviously the same pumps and controllers.
      Your responsibility is to your readers not RE. You must be kidding yourself, at least admit they look to be exactly the same…

      Don't you remember the pictures of the red ones being built in china? Jon has much to add yet he has been shut out of the dialouge by RC, RB and YOU, a blog should not protect corporations from allegations of fraud it should be there to protect, help, teach it's readers.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      Nick, I have no allegiance to RE. In fact, I do not own a single one of their products nor have I reviewed one here on GBD. My allegiance is indeed to my readers.

      Lets separate proven fact from forwarded e-mails and suspicions, that's all I ask.

    • Nick_GSM

      Thats Fine, but Jon does have a good deal of evidence, short of purchase orders. The problem is that he has been discredited and ignored because he has/had a relationship with ATB. This has been used to mask the real issue that RE lied about the origins of the RD2. the RD2 pumps were touted as an invention of RE and that is just not the case. If in the end the pumps had worked then nobody would have cared but they were obviously not vetted properly. Even Mr Toyota had to admit when they made mistakes and explain how in his opinion it happened.

      If this was the first time RE mislead consumers it might be excusable but they also lied about the RD1 and its origins for years, luckily for RE those pumps have a more acceptable failure rate.

      Blogs like this should be the place to discuss all of this openly. I am not sure of your legal background but Jon might have plenty of evidence to clear himself of any charges of slander brought against him, We just don't know. the idea should be to find out for your readers what the truth is. some old fashioned investigative journalism would be perfect.

    • james

      “Blogs like this should be the place to discuss all of this openly”
      Well if that is what you believe in then let's do it.
      It is amazing the the same ATB trolls all over the place beating the same dead horse.
      Personally I would not buy these pumps , their skimmers or your ATB, they are all overpriced & I can buy other brands the more or less do the same & will not send me to the poorhouse, however the hobby is sick of you guys pretending to care about the truth and using all forums, blogs ,… to push your products.
      WE DO NOT CARE, GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Peolple are not stupid, when Hahn was on RC every month there was a new product that he was pushing, well this happens in all industries you have people trying to make a name for themselves to get free goods to push!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      The one thing I can say about the other guys, atleast they do not bad mouth you so I guess they are up on you guys at least as far as character!!!!!!!
      Either way if you care take them to court, call them,……… other than that…………………………………….lf.
      Just my 2 cent

    • Matt Wandell

      “As for DC… what is the point? DC grants variable speed, higher starting torque, higher speeds that aren't coupled with the AC frequency, etc. The variable speed part is seen as the great bonus, but why? For wave making, we want to use prop pumps anyways, right? There are plenty of these out on the market now. What is the point of a variable speed centrifugal pump though?”

      Wow, really? I can think of a dozen different good applications right off the top of my head, although all of them are rather specialized and not likely to entice typical hobbyists. How about if you wanted to do a tidal surge system, or slow down the rate of tank to sump exchange during an auto feeder cycle, or create a really massive back and forth surge in a huge tank without using moving parts? I mean, VFDs are made for a reason, right?

    • Jon Hahn

      I think that is a cheap cop out to equate what I write as ATB trolling. I should remind you that I was busting Klaus for BS BEFORE I met Anton & Victor. Just because I happen to know them after the fact it seems too easy for people to think that one thing has much to do with the other. What would ATB gain by having me say these things about RE? Why wouldnt they say these things themselves then? Oh, wait, because maybe it has nothing to do with them… even if ATB never existed I was already snooping around to get the truth about RD pumps.

      I tried posting in response to Eric already, but I see it wasnt 'approved'. What will it take to convince you? I think I have provided plenty of evidence, yet there is still this 'denialism'. I give you the designer, Bert. I give you the maker, Honcar. I have photos, like the original owners manual in Chinese (with the 'made in the EU' print shown on the controller but shown in the Chinese manual…lol). The pumps were even purchased from Honcar and taken apart (Klaus was mad and demanded they be sent back to him… it didnt happen though). Klaus's reaction upon finding out was proof in itself. Its in a thread in meerwasserforums.com in the RE forums. I turned over the information about the country of origin fraud as well as the evidence I have to US Customs. They called me back and are on it. 'Slander?'… No. I dont mess around with propaganda, only what I know to be true.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      John, if you include a link it gets sent to the moderation queue. As this is response is a duplicate of the first, I'll leave the other one out.

      Believing and knowing are two distinctly different things. You may or may not be correct in your assumptions, but what you are presenting is unverifiable, second hand information. There is no documentation of any business relationship between Bert and RE. There is no documentation of orders being placed from RE, or an affiliate entity, and Honcar.

      What you have is a pump made by a known Chinese knock-off manufacturer that is faulty, and e-mails from a man in the Netherlands making claims.

      There could be many reasons for the above. Soured business relationship and off shore prototyping come to mind. If one were to jump to those conclusions, they are no more logical or illogical than the ones you have made. Lets keep the speculation out, there is no place for it here on Glassbox Design.

    • Matt

      “ATB troll” ROFL! This is the funniest series of comments I've read in a long time. I only have two points, 1) this is Eric's blog, he can say what he wants, he owes nothing to anyone, and 2) there are few industries that are as shady as the aquarium hobby, it is rife with ridiculous claims. HOWEVER, if you make claims, and most certainly if you have ties to a competitor, its just logical to have some real evidence behind your accusations, like links, documents, etc I'm not saying that you do not, only that you have yet to show these artifacts.

    • Jon Hahn

      When Honcar sold the pumps, Klaus had a fit that the mfg was selling to others:
      http://www.meerwasserforum.com/thread.php?threa...

      He confirmed THAT THEY WERE THE RD2 PUMPS though because he demanded the pumps back since he said they were 'his' and the sale was 'illegal'. So dont take my word for it, take Klaus's… he busted himself in the end. That thread I linked to confirms it.

      Shortly after, Honcar wouldnt sell any longer unless they could 'redo' certain parts of the pumps (cosmetic though only, which is sorta jenky, like change the accent parts and LED's to blue rather than red) because Klaus called them and threatened the manager at Honcar. Otherwise, the motors would be identical.

      Remember (or look up the thread at RC) when Klaus first announced the RD2? He claimed it was all made by him (anyone who knows about electric motor design would tell you that it takes more than what Klaus has available to develop such a motor). Then, later on, it was part here, part there… most of pump in China, controller from Japan, custom volute from Netherlands. Then later on, when things started going bad, he said the whole thing was the mfg's fault and the whole thing was made by this one other company.

      Here's two other tidbits for you… you know how Klaus always plays like he doesnt speak English very well? Try calling him in Germany… he speaks English alot better than he lets on. Dont believe me? I dont need proof, just call him yourself.

      Oh, and those Vertex Alpha Kone bodies? made in China.

    • klausjansen

      Hello,
      nobody now the truth Story behind this Pumps. Fact is :

      RE never transfer one Cent to Chinese manufacturers….
      RE ordert the Development and Products by a Netherland Company…
      RE stoped the sale of the Netherland DC-Pumps in May 2009 and send back all default Pumps in a big Container to the Netherland Manufacturer…
      RE dont was the Manufacturer of the RD2 Pumps. The Manufacturer named Estrad B.V.
      Now, this Company sell the default Products under our Trademark Name >Red Dragon< and >Red Devil< Now, He change only the Color of Pumphead in Blue Design and renamed the Pumps yet in Blue Devil. Please noticed : this Pumps has nothing to do with RE.

      Mr. Jonathan Warnke, alias Hahnmeister…. i dont no, why you so a big Enemy of my Person ? Maybe, you remember…., any years ago, you ask RE via PN in RC for Money for a Lobbyjob for Pushing our Products in Public Forums. Sorry, RE dont to pay Money or spend free Gifts to Lobbyist….. Nice to see, you found a Manufacturer, where do it.

      @ New DC.Pumps from RE.

      It comming a complete new Line of DC Pumps. Now totally under the Controll from Royal-Exclusiv. The new Linie ist total different and has nothing to do, with the Netherland Company. It´s a complet new Development and not comparable to the Netherland Pumps…

      Sorry to all our Customers, where have Problems with the Pumpline RD2 Titanium. In a short Time, we have new DC-Pumps and we make a Recall of all sold Pumps and change it to the new Pumpline….(maybe 500 Pumps)

      Please noticed : .. we change only the RD2 Pumps was sold from Royal-Exclusiv and our Distributors. WE DONT CHANGE Pumps, was sold in Alibaba.com and was sold black in the Market of the Netherland Company.

      @Chinese Manufacturers…

      the Chinese manufacturers are not the Problem, if you want high-Quality Products. She can do it. The Chineses doing, what the Customers ordert : low Quality= low Price. If you want high Quality, you must to pay the same as in USA or Germany.

      regards .. Klaus Jansen >Royal-Exclusiv<

    • Jon Hahn

      @ Klaus,
      When you saw the pictures of the RD2 pump purchased directly from the OEM, you demanded the motors be given back or else the full MSRP be paid. Why would you demand that if the pumps were not genuine? In that thread at meerwasserforum.com, you tell a different story again. The thing is, if people follow your posts and pay attention to details, you contradict yourself over time. Perhaps the easiest thing to ask yourself would simply be “why would some company in China go through the effort and cost of trying to imitate your motors as you claim?” Not to mention, Honcar had those pumps on the internet at the same time you happened to release the RD2's. Did Honcar have spies in the Netherlands in the development team? Thats about the only way they could have developed a copy so fast. Your story just simply doesnt make sense. GOOD electric motors aren't so easy to develop, unless you hired on an engineering division recently. While you may develop parts of a pump, the motor will no doubt have to come from another (larger) company. That is just a fact of the reef aquarium market.

      “you ask RE via PN in RC for Money for a Lobbyjob for Pushing our Products in Public Forums.” -Klaus

      Really? I cant believe you actually just said that. Wow, thats just desperate. Come up with that PM, please. Try it. I still have all my old emails from you. You wonder why I say you are full of crap, yet you make a post right there that is clearly full of crap. I never asked you for ANYTHING, EVER. This lobbyist thing is all in your head Klaus. Not that it matters, but I havent even talked with ATB so far in 2010. Not that it even matters, but how would you even know anything well enough to claim I am employed by someone else? I make electric motors for the NAVY now, and looking at working for Marine Applied Research and Engineering (MARE) on ROV's… little to do with this market unless you think underwater robots have a future in this hobby…lol.

    • http://www.premiumaquatics.com/ Jeremy B.

      I'm not getting in the middle of the “he said, she said” stuff. I do ask this one question though…. Jon, what kind of picture are you trying to paint of Klaus by saying “you know how Klaus always plays like he doesnt speak English very well? Try calling him in Germany… he speaks English alot better than he lets on. Dont believe me? I dont need proof, just call him yourself.” ?

      I have talked to Klaus on the phone a few times personally, and his English is not great, so be it.

      You then go on and take a jab at the Vertex Alpha cones by saying “Oh, and those Vertex Alpha Kone bodies? made in China.”

      You have such an axe to grind with Klaus and RE it's not even funny. This is why you have been banned by just about every forum out there. In all honesty, you don't much to lend to this hobby, or it's growth. It would be in everyone's best interest if you just let things go and move on.

    • Jon Hahn

      “I'm not getting in the middle of the “he said, she said” stuff.” -Jeremy B.

      There is a dubious disclaimer if I ever saw one. If that is the case, then you should go back and erase everything after that line. Its like saying “No offense but (insert offensive remark here)”. And then you continue with the whole 'not getting in the middle' idea I can see…

      “This is why you have been banned by just about every forum out there. In all honesty, you don't much to lend to this hobby, or it's growth.” -Jeremy B.

      I was banned from RC and Zeovit. Thats it. If that is 'every forum out there', I suppose you dont get around the internet much. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about others, but I could say the same for you since your statement doesn't really involve any qualification or substance as to what 'lends' to this hobby. I could list things you are most likely forgetting in the past, but its pretty obvious that you have a bias, and a selective memory, and so you really want to just see things one way, and you will base your opinions on that opinion. If all you want to consider is this one topic and nothing else, and if you then paint that in a negative light, I suppose you are right about me, but that in itself is very narrow minded since you are only considering one thing. Others might see my involvement here as a good thing. The key thing here is why I do what I do isnt motivated by what you think of me, so if thats the best fluff you can come up with, why even bother saying it? Why would what you think be of any concern? Unless you know everything I am working on, or what I have worked on in the past, your opinion is just that and based on little substance. You just dont like the fact that there is a good chance I am right, and people dont like it when their value systems get rocked… much like with the Toyota mess. Until it became official, those who accused Toyota of exactly what came to be were cast into a very negative light. Those who are making additional claims beyond what Toyota has admitted to so far (software glitches) are still under scrutiny, even though considering what has happened they shouldn't be.

      Why dont you go back to your 'Im not going to getting into the middle of this' idea and stick with it? That was a good idea that you seemed to forget as soon as you said it.

    • http://www.premiumaquatics.com/ Jeremy B.

      You took the time to type all of that, yet you still couldn't answer my simple question….

      What are you getting at by stating that Klaus can't speak English very well? In all reality he actually can't, I've talked to him a few times on the phone, so I think I'm well aware of his ability to speak English.

      And then out of nowhere you throw this in….. “Oh, and those Vertex Alpha Kone bodies? made in China.” No one in this entire thread mentioned one single thing about Alpha Kone skimmers, until you brought that up. This type of drivel is the exact reason why the overwhelming majority of board members out there do not respect your opinions or point of views anymore.

      Jon, I have nothing personal against you, or anyone out there in the reefing community for that matter. However, when people start questioning everything you state in online forums / blogs, maybe you should start considering why that is.

      I'm quite sure that my post here will elicit some long, drawn out response once again as to why I should take my own advice as you previously stated. Rest assured, I will, as I have spoken my bit on this topic.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      Jon, you've shown you cannot express you opinion without putting down others. I've removed your last comment along with Jeremy's for this reason.

      If/when you have something constructive to add to the stories here on GBD e-mail me.

    • brianedwards

      Jon,
      I have personally been to the warehouse of RE, and spent time at dinner with Klaus and a few friends. I can assure you that Klaus is a little challenged when it comes to the english language. To say he is hiding behind it is absurd.
      I do not know about the rest of the issues, but to say Klaus has good english is laughable, and you are totally wrong on that aspect.

    • Jon Hahn

      I never actually put Jeremy down if you read it carefully. Sure, my tone “isnt nice”, but I simply pointed out the holes in his statement, implying that based on his logic I could say the same to him, and left it at that. I didnt call him names or anything. I just suggested that he stuck to his initial idea of staying out of the ‘he said/she said’. I was careful not to directly insult however. Saying that someone is acting stupid for instance is not the same as calling them stupid.

    • Jon Hahn

      I never actually put Jeremy down if you read it carefully. Sure, my tone “isnt nice”, but I simply pointed out the holes in his statement, implying that based on his logic I could say the same to him, and left it at that. I didnt call him names or anything. I just suggested that he stuck to his initial idea of staying out of the ‘he said/she said’. I was careful not to directly insult however. Saying that someone is acting stupid for instance is not the same as calling them stupid.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      Jon/ Hahn / Wetworx,

      Your actions and responses defy logic.

      Comments closed.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      Jon/ Hahn / Wetworx,

      Your actions and responses here defy logic.

      Comments closed.

    • http://glassbox-design.com/ eric michael

      Jon/ Hahn / Wetworx,

      Your actions and responses here defy logic.

      Comments closed.

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